This post addresses the forward motion issue that arose on HSP Season 4 Episode 1 which aired Aug 27, 2007. It takes a while to get to it…. But in the end I do.
This is my first ever blog. I like to write. I will be blogging for Always Bluff dot Com and I hope I don’t get too rambly. My rambling is a weakness, pleasure and strength that ends up making me who I am. I apologize in advance for rambling too much. (Strength - eight letter word with one vowel by the way….)
I hope to edit myself not that much, make up words that don’t exist (which seem like they should), spell turny turny.. and not tourney, keep it interesting, focus on not losing you if you are kind enough to follow me along in the first place, and lastly, I hope to do this regularly.
The first thread I would like to table is this. Last week on HSP (thank you TIVO) a hand developed between me and Todd Brunson. Before I continue I am going to post the actual hand by hand log in real time. Thanks to living in the digital age and thanks to it being televised it was all recorded.
This log is in REAL TIME… It does not reflect the edits that go into the post production that we see on TV.
13:38:14 Dealing $1,600
13:38:18 8 BRUNSON Calls $600 $2,200
13:38:19 1 VOULGARIS Folds $2,200
13:38:20 3 SALORIO Raises To $2,100 $4,300
13:38:26 4 HELLMUTH Folds $4,300
13:38:29 5 MATUSOW Folds $4,300
13:38:30 6 LAAK Calls $1,800 $6,100
13:38:32 7 BRANDON Folds $6,100
13:38:34 8 BRUNSON Calls $1,500 $7,600
13:38:34 Dealing Flop 7c 2h Qd $7,600
13:38:47 6 LAAK Checks $7,600
13:38:50 8 BRUNSON Checks $7,600
13:38:51 3 SALORIO Checks $7,600
13:38:51 Dealing Turn 5h $7,600
13:39:04 6 LAAK Bets $3,300 $10,900
13:39:29 8 BRUNSON Calls $3,300 $14,200
13:39:50 3 SALORIO Folds $14,200
13:39:50 Dealing River 3d $14,200
13:40:35 6 LAAK Bets $10,400 $24,600
13:41:26 8 BRUNSON Calls $10,400 $35,000
13:41:32 6 LAAK Wins $35,000 $0
The key hands were…
Q 10 of hearts for Todd Brunson (limps) – (then later over calls Tony’s raise and my call)
A K (os) for Tony Salorio (raises)
77 for Phil Laak (me) (calls)
What happens in the hand is this. The flop comes, wow. I flopped a set. I check. (Bad poker, in my opinion.) I believe that betting is better here but for some reason, right then and there I check. Not the end of the world. Even if Todd and Tony both missed, Tony may just make a continuation bet.
I check, Todd checks, and Tony checks.
The turn comes, I bet, Todd calls, and Tony folds.
Then here is where it gets slushy. The river.
I bet, and go into stoic mode. Of course I am praying for the call. It is 10,400 after all. And with it costing 1,700 per orbit this would be tasty.
I’ve been in cash games where I am sure that I pick up equity by talking during a hand. There are times I am uncertain what the consequences might bring. And then there are times like this. Times where I would be a fool to break the stoic shield. Todd is harmonized and the last thing I need to do is jiggle the space time continuum. He has been here countless times and the last thing I need to do is give him something extra to work with. Stoic time. In the end he called the bet and lost to the set of sevens.
Watching the show it is not completely clear that he called! But for the record, he did in fact call. When I saw it last week I thought he had, but I was not 100%. My memory had him calling but I was not sure. (I couldn’t believe I would show my set unless he called.) Thanks again to the digital age for clearing that up.
The hand was edited poorly. It should have been clearer. He called of his own volition. No one ruled that he had to call because of his forward motion. Only after the hand was 100% over did I ask to know what the rule would be for the future. I was unsure of the rule at this casino. I was only waiting until he either called or folded before I was going to bring it up. To bring it up during the hand seemed like a very bad time.
By the way, the name of the casino we were in was the South Point Casino, in
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Before I get to the whole forward motion thing that happened in this hand, I want to compare the exact time for actions that occurred alongside what we saw on TV. Then I will couple that data with a comment Gabe Kaplan made during the hand.
Action Time (R) Time (TV)
Flop if dealt until my check on the flop. 13 3 to 4
Turn card is the 5 of hearts until I bet the turn. 13 4 to 5
I finish betting the turn until Todd calls the bet. 25 4 to 5
River is 3 of diamonds until I bet the 10,400 on river. 45 ~ 8
I finish river bet until Todd calls. 51 ~ 41
Key:
Action: All actions start with an action and time runs until final action is completed.
Time (R): This is the actual amount of time it took. From the original logs!
Time (TV): This is the approximate amount of time it took as seen on TV. (I counted in my head. (Probably accurate to within 10%)
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And now for a disclaimer.
Disclaimer: Out of all the televised poker I have seen (which is a TON), I believe that Gabe Kaplan is the best commentator. I made this decision after HSP Season One and let Gabe know this as well. Other commentators have their moments and I have actually bust out laughing on occasion when they hit it on the head. But all in all it is not even close. Gabe has been the King of that universe for a few years now.
His time at the tables, his wit, and feel for what is happening has left the others all fighting for second place.
Okay, that being said….
There is a moment in this hand where Gabe zones out and forgets that he is watching the ‘cut to fit’ ‘compress it for TV.’ version of this hand. As you may already know, most of the show is built, edited, and more or less made to fit into 46 minute chunk of time they call an episode. AJ Benza and Gabe Kaplan meet in a sound room AFTER all that is done and add a commentary track. This is called LOOPING by the way.
After I bet the turn Todd took 25 seconds to call (real time). What Gabe and AJ saw during looping was Todd calling in 4 or 5 seconds (TV time). Gabe makes a comment with regards to the speed of the call. This is a simple case of forgetfulness on his part about the possible disparity between what really happened and what he sees during the looping.
Here is what we heard on the show.
Gabe: Phil can’t wait any longer, he’s gonna bet, lets see if Todd raises.
AJ: Phil bets thirty three hundred. Todd calls.
Gabe: Immediately. He doesn’t even contemplate raising… (pause)…. Knows Phil Laak’s game
(River comes the three of diamonds)
Gabe: Todd misses his flush…
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I remember that 25 seconds, I felt him thinking. I was hoping for a raise. In the end he just calls. (Which I think is the optimal play here for what its worth.) So for what it’s worth, it was not an immediate call. Whatever, I just figured that if I was getting into it on this hand I might as well hit a subtlety or two along the way.
Ok. So back to the hand. I bet the 10,400 and action is on Todd. He asks me “is that 5 or 10?” Referring to the bundle of cash. I am never answering this question, or any question for that matter. I could if I want to, but I elect to exercise my right to silence. The bet was in no way vague. (If I saw that it was vague I would probably wait for the dealer to sort it out – my paranoia runs deep on the river – no jiggling the wa.)
Whatever, no biggy, all he is trying to do is open a line of communication. Totally and fully cool.
Then he jokingly and in good spirits waves his hand in front of me. He and I get along very well. He guesses accurately that this is not going to bother me. It doesn’t. I am only trying to be a tree all the while trying to keep my mind blank. I give all good poker players credit for being part telepath, so when I am in moments like this I just try to go into the zone, and forget what I have – bluffing or monster – no matter.
Then he makes the forward motion. This is where it gets slushy. First of all, before I give the play by play on what was going on in my head I hope that none of the readers out there think Todd is an angle shooter. He is about as far from an angle shooter as they come. That is a fact. If you need corroboration then just ask around. It is a no brainer.
You hear Todd himself say that we are not in
There seem to be a few things that the Casinos will probably all never agree to, which is fine. I just like to know the lay of the land for where ever I might be playing at the time.
Funny thing … If you asked me what the Bellagio’s rule was here I would have been wrong. I gamble there a fair amount and was surprised to find out that in fact forward motion is not binding!!! Wow. Yup, I called them and asked. And while I was at it I called a few more card rooms.
Today I called 10 well known casinos in the
Here is what they had to say. (And below is a chart summarizing the results.) For those of you concerned about bias data collecting, I selected 10 casinos in addition to the South Point before I started making the calls, and have included all the results.
VEGAS
Wynn - We don’t stick to forward motion unless chips are cut or someone acts based on the forward motion.
Bellagio – Forward motion is not binding. The chips must release from the players hands.
Venetian – Across the line and chips released. If there is subsequent action based on forward motion alone then it would be a floor person’s job to make a ruling on whether or not the motion indicated a call.
(Floor guy at the Venetian said that he had heard of (but did not know the name of) one or two casinos in Vegas where forward motion is binding. Given the number of poker rooms in Vegas, they would very much be in the minority.)
South Point – Well, they gave a ruling that day. Forward motion is binding.
The Bike (LA) – Same as the Wynn.
The Commerce (LA) – Forward motion is considered a call.
Hollywood Park Casino (LA) – Same as Wynn.
Bay 101 (
Lucky Chances (Colma) – That is a grey area. I would have to see what happened to make a ruling.
Borgata (
Foxwoods – Forward motion is a call.
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Is Forward Motion Binding?
VEGAS
Wynn No
Bellagio No
Venetian No
South Point Yes
Bike No
Commerce Yes
Bay 101 Yes
Lucky Chances Depends
Borgata Yes
Foxwoods Yes
This was most illuminating to me. Vegas leans towards no. Explaining why Todd was confused why I would even ask.
Remember, I spoke to one random floor person at each casino. I have seen different rulings within the same casino many times. It is possible that I got bad information. But the thing I am sure of is this. The casinos are not all in agreement. Some are hard core left and some are hard core right on this topic.
This is just one more example of where you need to know what is going on. From my VERY limited research it looks like there is about a 50/50 split on the way some major casinos in the
Todd was never out of line. He was not taking a shot. He was just playing cards. Simple.
After the hand we got the ruling. We all accepted their rule. And then we diverged to a ramble session on how forward do you have to be to be forward!
I hope this sheds some light on the situation.
Phil Laak
September 11th, 2007 at 7:08 am
Hello,
I’m Tournament Director in France.
Your researchs stick to the universe of the casinos & cash games. You must know that most of the houses have they own rules wich create an enormous confusion for the players.
The TDA & Robert’s Rule of Poker (with it’s 10th edition) try to create an universal reference AT LEAST FOR THE TOURNAMENTS.
So: In a tournament a forward motion WITHOUT releasing the chips ISN’T A CALL (neither a bet) BUT CAN BE PUNISHED IF ABUSED!
Conclusion: I would’nt oblige Todd to call but would give him a warning for abusing of his rights.
GG
September 11th, 2007 at 7:23 am
Lot’s of respect for your fair-play wit h Todd.
Great job your reseachs for the house rules (if all the players where like you: the floor managers of all the houses & casinos would be more humble & would have allready write an universal rulesbook!).
Best regards champion!
GG
October 7th, 2007 at 12:24 am
They didn’t do justice with this hand on HSP, good explanation, good breakdown, good analysis. I play at Foxwoods in the NL realm and never had seen this called out before, have seen players do it but never seen it called out.
I respect the way you played it.
Research is nice, be interesting to see if you called the same casino for their opinions at different times (night shift and day shift, weekend and weekday) to see if the answers are consistent.
SR